Server changes - Earth Empires Forum

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 5:45:24

I think the purpose of Telly's thread was to discuss possible changes to reduce further rules violations, and to implement certain new rules. Its most ambitious aim was to discuss potentially removing allies from the server.

The discussion has manifested into something much more, and tbh I don't think it's fair.

Express is fine and some changes to address cheating would be good. But I see this talk about # of turns, turn rate, govt, strat, and formula changes and I really don't think this was the intent, nor do I think Tell, the new game mod sent to express to help rid this server of cheating, really is in a position to make strategy changes of any sort.

Tell - am I right on this?

that discussion was very loaded and I think it makes sense to clarify which type of changes are possible.

Edited By: Vic on Dec 19th 2013, 5:51:03

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 5:55:14

he asked for an open discussion about what express players might feel need to be changed.

we offered such a discussion.

if he wasn't in a position to change anything, or carry on a conversation suggesting changes, he shouldn't have opened said discussion.

how not to cheat? you get caught once, you are done. you simply do NOT get to play any further. on any server.

the only change that should matter, if not actual game play.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 5:56:29

i mean draconian.

if you're new and an honest mistake where you coordinate- you're done. the game is better without you.

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 5:59:25

dude wtf are you talking about

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:00:31

i'm saying yes keep the discussion to things involving cheating. but when xin starts crunching numbers and bringing strat into play - i don't think that was the intent of the convo. that is what i'm saying

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:00:45

Originally posted by braden:

he asked for an open discussion about what express players might feel need to be changed.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:02:11

the intent of the convo was for express players to suggest changes they feel will better the server.

he never once said number crunching isn't kosher, and certainly never suggested we can't argue against those who may number crunch.

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:05:44

well i saw what you said but you were wrong.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:06:15

that is very often the case, my friend ;)

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:08:31

:p

Telly explicitly stated in both his opening paragraph and in his numbered points below that the changes were about rules issues.

He did not explicitly state that strat changes were not to be discussed (as one would not expect him to do) but now that the convo has gone into that direction I think it warrants being said. Because I am certain Telly was not brought to this server, a server he has never played, to open up a discussion about possible changes that could effect strategy. that's a very loaded gun and it shouldn't be in Telly's hand!

the convo was intended for rules changes and i'm just asking telly to confirm that and then the convo can become more productive and focused.

how many have you had to drink tonight?

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:12:22

Vic you're right but how can you blame Xin for using the opportunity to post his wish list? braden's right too in that respect. Might not have been exactly what tellalien was looking for but he opened the door for suggestions so there it is. I kinda said the same thing as you are now though at one point, that basically any code/game changes are probably not about to happen. Which is why I pushed for my policy change of outing cheaters :P

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:14:21

but the rules are fairly certainly set-- the obvious, and then the less obvious- the less obvious being coordinating.

his discussion was opened to end coordinating?

once you create a solo server country, you should by the rules, not be allowed to post on these forums or any earth related site, because it simply, undeniably and invariably accommodates coordination.

i play express- you play express?
i will techer, you will techer, too? coordination by any definition.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:15:40

don't out cheaters.

refuse them to be allowed to play. nobody will care who cheated last reset if they will never be allowed to play again.

you cheat a single time, you are done with this game.

that is the only fair way :( anything else encourages cheating

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:17:20

I think tellalien was kind of asking for advice on what we expect in terms of moderation in regards to leeching, in regards to "coordination," and so on like that.

Lacking messages explicitly indicating that the leeching is to "help a friend" I don't think deleting for leeching is an answer. If there was such a message last set the winner should have stayed purple probably - my opinion. But you can't delete for leeching period as long as RA spots exist, because too many ignorant people will just fill them irresponsibly without knowing better. But so then that brings you to the code changes again w/r/t RAs.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:18:27

no no blid i'm not blaming Xin at all! I literally bow down to every single thing Xin does and says.
Just trying to refocus the conversation.

p.s. for anyone that thinks xin only speaks objective and quantitive truths - xin is a truly gentle and kind person and i once asked him for advice on anxiety and in just a line or two he was able to provide me a really profound way to conceptualize life and i'm forever grateful for that. i've always loved xin and i just think he's a shining star in more ways than most know

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:18:30

Originally posted by braden:

don't out cheaters.

refuse them to be allowed to play. nobody will care who cheated last reset if they will never be allowed to play again.

you cheat a single time, you are done with this game.

that is the only fair way :( anything else encourages cheating

Yeah, but, like they always say, people can change IPs and make new accounts. Actually banning people from the game is very difficult. But I do like what you're saying here, because you're yet another voice asking them to crack down harder on cheats. The entire community seems to be speaking in one voice when it comes to that.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:20:25

but then you can't delete because of ss/ps where vic runs his country solely for me to attack.. because, well, you can't suggest it's cheating when the game allows for me to ss or ps

i mean, save him sending a message saying he runs it solely for me to attack..

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:22:33

You're talking about running land farms? That can be rooted out usually by checking if the same person seems to always be there within minutes of a new batch explore, or within minutes of the farm attacking his way out of DR. When Seth ran farms every reset it was always very obvious. He still has non-purple top scores from when he ran farms though despite me mailing definitive proofs to mods and admins. :X But that's so far in the past now it seems pretty meaningless.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:22:38

but they can determine how often i get bonus turns? how often i get login bonuses? if my ip was 1.1.1.1.01 and i played, but changed my ip to 1.1.1.1.02, i get free bonus turns and free login bonuses despite having done it all two minutes earlier on my first ip?

or am i misunderstanding what it takes to lie to this game?

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:27:14

That's probably wrong braden because I assume they just tie the bonuses to accounts. One account can't collect the same bonus twice in 24 hours. If you made a second account, and changed your IP, the second account perhaps could go and get that bonus.

It seems they do have other ways to track you though, besides your account, that's true. IP, cookies, maybe some computer config. info. With those things combined they could probably, if they so chose, make it difficult for people to make new accounts, but always a new mobile device signing up for a new account would be impossible to stop wouldn't it? Unless the person slipped up? But sure, I'm with you in that it should be attempted. However the mods here seem to value VERY highly the ability to know who cheats and watch those people.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:28:38

And that's why I aim lower and simply ask them to reveal the usernames of cheaters.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

TDA101

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:32:30

Well theres a dilemma because if you delete someone, what stops them from making a new account and just rampaging again?

You need some deterrence and preventative measures to stop assholes.

Stopping someone from playing in the next set just means they will want to multie.

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:36:15

but tda that's what makes express the wild west! you all explore types like the plain vanilla finishes but personally i like only finishing 1 in every 4 or 5 sets here . it's express!

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:40:19

i don't understand, i guess.. if i have dialup, or proxies, i can run as many countries as i desire and the admins will never know?

i'm not being intentionally ignorant, (i don't need any particular effort in that sense :P), but what literally stops every one of us from playing one country from our home and a second from our phone, what with not our homes ip?

surely they must have.. something? anything?

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:42:30

Originally posted by braden:

i'm not being intentionally ignorant, (i don't need any particular effort in that sense :P), but what literally stops every one of us from playing one country from our home and a second from our phone, what with not our homes ip?

surely they must have.. something? anything?

how about the hope that man was born inherently good and not all of us are completely corrupted? :p

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:43:37

Originally posted by braden:

i don't understand, i guess.. if i have dialup, or proxies, i can run as many countries as i desire and the admins will never know?

i'm not being intentionally ignorant, (i don't need any particular effort in that sense :P), but what literally stops every one of us from playing one country from our home and a second from our phone, what with not our homes ip?

surely they must have.. something? anything?

well first of all there's the issue of personal ethics where a lot of us would never do such a thing. however, i don't see any way to stop someone from playing one account on phone 4g connection and one on computer local connection. how could they? unless you coordinated the two countries. but that's the rub. coordinate and you could get caught. don't coordinate and what's the point? why not just play one country, and have better access to it by being able to use your home connection and your phone to play it? and be legit to boot!

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Vic

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:44:24

lol i knew i liked you blid

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 6:57:05

personal ethics are wonderful, blid, until somebody arbitrarily determins your ethics are bullfluff and you deserve not to play.

then, what are you left with? i still have my ethics, i suppose, but that didn't go very far in stopping me from being bullied and cheated, myself, by the admins of the game no less, heh.

ethics are fun like that, i guess. and by fun, i mean entirely and utterly useless outside of self respect?
not to beat a dead horse there, i accept it and they were likely right.. but it does kind of maybe a little bit make me wonder how far ethics might take you

silentwolf

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:26:31

I have 3 pcs, 3 notebooks, 2 ipads and 2 phones..

that doesn't mean I am going to cheat ! :p

Blid's a LUNATIC !

h2orich

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:29:11

Thats 2 team tags on team server SW. Do you run the entire Seawolf and Seapups tags

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:29:44

but you can still play ten countries, and it isn't cheating. cheating is apparantly defined by playing more than your one country on your ip. by definition if you have ten ips, you get ten countries. and it's ethical, to boot.

h2orich

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:33:56

that means you can have 250 ffa countries

silentwolf

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:34:53

that means I wont have a life !

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:35:24

i needto buy me a few tablets, a laptop and a second phone, fluff me

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:35:50

Originally posted by braden:

personal ethics are wonderful, blid, until somebody arbitrarily determins your ethics are bullfluff and you deserve not to play.

then, what are you left with? i still have my ethics, i suppose, but that didn't go very far in stopping me from being bullied and cheated, myself, by the admins of the game no less, heh.

ethics are fun like that, i guess. and by fun, i mean entirely and utterly useless outside of self respect?
not to beat a dead horse there, i accept it and they were likely right.. but it does kind of maybe a little bit make me wonder how far ethics might take you

dude you got purpled once in a case in which most people, myself included, believe you personally did nothing wrong. if i got deleted in such a scenario i wouldn't see it as an eternal stain on my personal morals! keep your chin up.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:37:00

Originally posted by braden:

but you can still play ten countries, and it isn't cheating. cheating is apparantly defined by playing more than your one country on your ip. by definition if you have ten ips, you get ten countries. and it's ethical, to boot.

no, cheating is defined as one person having more than one game account. what you're talking about is just a matter of what can be detected. i like to think there's plenty of people that don't care what can be detected, and whom would never cheat.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:38:17

Originally posted by silentwolf:

I have 3 pcs, 3 notebooks, 2 ipads and 2 phones..

that doesn't mean I am going to cheat ! :p

Blid's a LUNATIC !

i never said it did... btw, you should put some of that fluff on ebay. that's excessive.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:41:14

but you also didn't repudiate cheating after having cheated for eleven years. i did. and my reward? being labelled a cheater.

you realize, i was better off while cheating, than i am now? held in better regard better, not personal morals better- we done did wrong, previous.

i do not argue the deletions, arguably we would have deserved farr worse for what we did to begin with. but that is over, and has been for a long time.

but that carries zero weight. so zero weight is what everybody should get- either kick and ban the cheaters for life, even TRY to. Or else let the foxes run the hen house. you can't pick and chose.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:43:18

i am one of them, blid. if you could see my ips used, you would see my house, my best friends house, my phone, and the wifi at my local watering hole, that is four right there.

and yet, because honestly and fairness is what makes games enjoyable for everybody, i simply chose not to.

and my reward? deleted and labelled a cheater. all for doing right by myself, the game, and it's players.

woe is me.

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:45:37

you were not labeled as a cheater. your country was purple, yes, but the fact is the deletion of RD was a punishment against MrCopper and MrSilver, a precedent-making move to deter such cheating in the future, to make clear it wouldn't benefit the tag. it was not an indictment of all the players in the clan. everyone knows that. buck up young fella.

but in any case, i don't really follow you.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

silentwolf

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:50:18

Weedy ! I still love you bro.

I always wondered how the hell I wasn't a color ... :/

h2orich

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:51:38

anyone here can update me with a 1-2 sentence on what happened to RD?

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:53:43

how can you not know?

mr copper, who was a newbie at this game, a bottom 25% player, detected some weaknesses he coud exploit on the websites. he did so and stole accounts. he passed the info to mr silver. mr silver tries to deny he knew the accounts were hacked, but most dont find that plausible. they logged onto other people's boxcar accounts to find planned attack times, made lists of peoples personal info, etc. got caught.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:59:12

blid, i beg to differ. it was entirely an indictment against the rank and file.

who got punished? the rank and file. who was hurt? the rank and file? who did wrong? **not** the rank and file. who gets nothing done against them, because they get to change their ip or play from work? copper or silver, yay~!

while i am left, being honest and ethical, and treated like a cheater.

do not get me wrong.. i made my bed, i can certainly lie in it, i have little issue on this front.. i will be the first to admit i did horrible things when i was far younger. i can understand, i can even maybe not really argue it.. but in the end, the sting is still there. the slap to the face is still there.

as, i realize, many in this game feel that we did to them. i understand, but that doesn't make it easier. you are good people blid, i appreciate how you actually conversate, so if i come off as aggressive or rude, it isn't meant as such, at all.

when i was fourteen and just joining rd sw, i was POSITIVE you were already there :P

h2orich

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Dec 19th 2013, 7:59:14

thanks for the update. I'm not really involved with 1a stuffs. Do you play 1a blid?

so Mr Copper was a newbie at this game? but how did he get his 'color'? He stole accounts from BC or the game itself? And the whole of RD got removed because of him?

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 8:07:32

"mr silver tries to deny he knew the accounts were hacked, but most dont find that plausible. "

see, this is something i never quite understood..

if, no matter what website you ever try, and you use a login that isn't yours.. if you go to any website and try to login with login:123456, and you DID NOT set your account to that, then however uninspired it might be, YOU ARE DOING WRONG.

if it isn't yours, then leave it alone.

not a difficult concept. :(

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 8:09:12

Originally posted by h2orich:

thanks for the update. I'm not really involved with 1a stuffs. Do you play 1a blid?

so Mr Copper was a newbie at this game? but how did he get his 'color'? He stole accounts from BC or the game itself? And the whole of RD got removed because of him?

i definitely dont play 1a. i dont know why copper was a color, but i encountered him in tourney game C and everyone just farmed him. he was mad qzjul and pang didnt respond to his PMs about boxcar vulnerabilities so he hacked boxcar. i think only boxcare and not the game, i dont remember. the whole of RD got deleted because of it. the thinking was a similar thing had happened once before, and the punishment had not hurt the alliance involved at all (LAF), and now a similar thing had happened again, so they wanted to drop a huge punishment to make clear the penalty of hacking fluff and keep people from doing it again, and keep it from being worthwhile.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

silentwolf

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Dec 19th 2013, 8:12:11

bottom[quote poster=blid; 27941; 516012]how can you not know?

mr copper, who was a newbie at this game, a bottom 25% player, quote]

bottom 25% player ? LOL

I think I fall into that category too ehh.. on game play.. not the cheating part.

I gotta be clear.

blid

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Dec 19th 2013, 8:13:59

No, Ive seen you graduate from game C and advance to game A quite easily. He was stuck in game C, and he was farmland. He would occasionally start threads in Tourney forums that people would learn never to farm a Color! But whatever, people did and he was useless.

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:

Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

braden

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Dec 19th 2013, 8:14:04

it just happened to be convenient that the first time was the admins most adored alliance, and the second time was the admins most despised alliance.

interesting how the first punishment didn't quite do enough, hm..