I'm going to try to put as much detail into this as I can without it being a massive wall of text...

Bought a BB Q5 outright on April 14th from a WIND store. Was told that return policy was 15 days from the date of purchase. I specifically asked the rep if the 29th was the last day to return the phone. I was told yes.

April 29th I go to return the phone. I'm told that the 28th was the last day since WIND considers the date of sale as the first day to return (something unique in my experience...). I argue with the lady and I say that I was told the 29th would be fine. She says that the rep who sold it to me was new and gave me wrong information (this is not an excuse). I call customer support and they tell me that they've put in my complaint and I'll receive a call back within 3-5 days.

I get home and I'm not satisfied. I call customer service again and this time speak to a supervisor. The supervisor says that there's nothing they can do since they have no authority over the stores. I ask for contact information for the manager/franchisee/supervisor/district manager etc. in charge of that store. She's unable to give me that information. All she can do is give me the mailing address for the "office of the president" (which is identical to the generic customer service address on the site.)

So here is where I'm at.

1) Wind's return policy states "15 days from the date of purchase." If it is 5pm, one hour FROM now it will be 6pm. If it is 10:05, one minute FROM now will be 10:06. If it is April 14th, one day FROM today will be April 15th. I'm not sure how they can interpret the 14th as being day 1. What if I bought the phone 1 minute before closing? When will I have had my day to consider whether or not I want to return it?
2) A representative of Wind made a specific representation to me that the 14th did not count when she confirmed that I could return the phone on the 29th.
3) The receipt has completely different language when discussing the return policy. It says "within the first 15 days" whereas the policy that was quoted in the store, written on their website, and quote over the phone, is "15 days from the date of purchase." One policy written in two different ways.

In contract law, when a term is found to be ambiguous, it is interpreted AGAINST the party that wrote it. In this case, if I can demonstrate that the return policy is ambiguous, a judge should rule against WIND. Also, given that one WIND representative specifically told me the 29th was fine, and a second WIND representative didn't dispute this, but rather brushed it off by saying "she's new," I have even more evidence that this policy is ambiguous since their own employee didn't agree with the company's interpretation.

Today is the 5th business day since I was supposed to get a call back from customer service. After work my plan is to go into the store, politely explain the situation again (hopefully there is a manager there), and ask for a refund. If they say no, I'm going to politely explain that WIND as a company is competing in a very competitive space and that customer service is an issue many people have raised when it comes to dealing with WIND. My Rogers contract is up in September and I was seriously considering switching to WIND. If they could help resolve this issue it would certainly leave a positive impression of WIND as a company. If they still say no, then I'll pull out the legal stuff. The wording of the terms clearly state 15 days FROM the day of purchase, and since one day FROM today is tomorrow, today cannot count as the first day. Furthermore, their own representative told me that the 29th was fine. Their receipt uses completely different language to explain the return policy. There clearly is ambiguity in terms of the return policy. I am prepared to file a statement of claim for the cost of the phone. If this happens, WIND will be required to attend a pre-trial settlement conference. Even the most junior lawyer in whatever firm is retained by WIND will likely charge several hundred dollars for the time used to prepare for, and attend this conference. At the conference, my lawyer (who costs me nothing), will explain the situation. WIND has two choices. Settle, and refund my phone. Or continue with a court date, which could cost them thousands in legal fees. In the end, they're probably going to settle. I'll ask the manager or employee there if we can please end these silly games, avoid a big headache, and just return the phone. It's brand new. Plastics still on it. Used for maybe 2 hours. No SIM card has ever been in it. Just take it back, sell it, and lets move on.

Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? Anybody have a similar experience?

ouch, idk dude

In my town our local news tackles consumer problems like this. A little scare of bad publicity goes a long way. Theres my longshot 2 cents.

0) on a not serious note, people still buy blackberries? well, this is what you get for buying technology from the 1990s

1) don't wait for a manager/sup to call you - 99.6% of time, that's just what someone will tell you to get you off the phone. if you want to get results, you'll have to go down in person.

2) i'm not familiar with canuckistan moose law, but check your contract, you might've given up your right to small claims and instead agreed to arbitration

3) how did you pay for the phone? hopefully, credit card. if so, contact them, explain the situation, and see if it's possible to do a charge back on them since they will not accept the return. normally credit card companies have more weight behind them than just a single consumer and once they (wind) find out you're about to do a CCCB, might just fold and let you return the thing.

4) whatever promises/answers a CSR gives you verbally in person or over the phone is worth as much as the paper it's written on. ie, it's worthless. it's sad, but we need to get every little thing in writing so that you can back up your claims of what he/she said

5) if you can find the executive/high level email addresses for WIND people, you can try a EECB (executive email carpet bomb) write a clear and concise email with the situation, and what you'd like to have happen (returning it) and send it to the big wigs, and odds are either they will be pissed/irked that a peon is emailing them about your problem that they will either fix it themselves or have someone actually fix it for you.

Are the calls recorded?

I paid debit. No contract. Bought phone outright

yeah, don't pay debit for anything.

way less protection and less benefits than paying with credit.

[for future use]

They don't take amex :(

Been emaning to get an MC or VISA. Wife likes the physical keyboard. Price was right. Ended up getting a white one on ebay for cheaper, and unlocked. Want to return this one to WIND. $199 the phone was.

You probably own the phone, but Canadistan maybe different.
You have made several errors.

First off you didn't get it in writing, as Trife said a verbal contract is worth nothing. If you could have had it in writing, signed and dated, you would have had a chance but not being notarized may have still been worthless. You might be able to compel the the original person you asked to testify on your behalf but chances are you won't be able to find said person, and if they are still employed they certainly wont remember you.

As Requiem has mentioned, Did you record the calls? The calls are worthless because you likely didn't record them. The company may have, but so many outs allow them to withhold providing those calls. In fact all they have to say is they didn't record them and unless you can prove otherwise you will not be able to compel them legally to provide the evidence.

In court you are going to be asked why you waited so long to return the item. So why did you? It almost appears as if you wanted to challenge their return policy. This is going to weigh against you.

Chances are they won't show up, they will never pay, and all you can do is turn over what they owe to collections if any collections service would take such a small fee against such a large entity. Which they will not.

Most banks aren't going to get in the middle of a return policy dispute, you still have the product in your procession and any type of charge back could be considered fraud. No bank or financial entity is going to be an accomplice to fraud.

Your best bet would be the executive email carpet bomb... If you have a service like we have the Better Business Bureau, sometimes (especially for retail) a business will be likely to resolve a complaint. However your situation looks pretty bad and now you are well past the return date, so they likely wouldn't accept your complaint. Also larger businesses rarely worry about BBB complaints.

"A verbal contract is worth nothing" apparently not in Canada

"The calls are worthless because you likely didn't record them."

They record them on their customer service end and I have the confirmation numbers. But they don't help.

"In court you are going to be asked why you waited so long to return the item. So why did you? It almost appears as if you wanted to challenge their return policy."

The company return policy requires phones to be returned to the store they were purchased at. This was one of the only stores in my area to have the phone in stock. I work as a supply teacher. The store is quite a distance away. On the 29th I was scheduled to work at a school near the store. I went to return it after work. That doesn't matter though. The CRTC has regulations specifically targeted at protecting consumers from phone companies. One of them is 15 days to try the product before returning it. The fact that I took all 15 days to which I was entitled doesn't matter.

We also have the BBB and I can file a complaint with the CRTC and under the Consumer Protection Act which can result in fines up to $50,000 against the company. I have faxed a letter, as well as a letter indicating my complaint under the CPA to their offices.

psst, the BBB is just a scam itself

i'll leave this here

http://business.time.com/...-give-itself-a-bad-grade/

I don't understand why you'd buy a phone you never intended to keep?

514 complaints against Wind with the BBB. Telus has 555. Wind has 8 million nationwide customers in its system. Wind has 675,000.

It was for my wife to see if she liked it. She tried it, decided she didn't like it, so I went to return it. Not sure how this is difficult to understand. Return policies exist because people change their minds or people need more time to try a product.

while he should've been able to return it as per their return policies, that is a good question

You could always opt for the protest by standing in front of the store and informing every potential customer of how you've been treated by said company and thus causing them no end of heartache over lost sales, even if they're only potential lost sales. Just make sure you have your documentation on you. Usually the franchisee will be more than willing to take care of this so that they can get back to business as usual.

I had to use this method on Sprint in Philadelphia after they broke my laptop trying to prove that their internet card was working properly by repeatedly jamming it harder and harder into the pcmcia slot. This happened AFTER I had already informed their technician that my other pcmcia cards all worked normally.

They wound up buying a replacement laptop for me and giving me a couple of months of free service for my inconvenience. But it was the willingness to make a stink in front of their store that made the difference.

Ok I have worked in customer service all most of my life in call centres. (yes i do hang up on people just for fun, and no trife your wrong, saying you will get a manager to call is not 99% just to get you of the phone, not in my experience anyway, most places have one manager for 10-15 staff, its hard to get them free to deal with a complaint right then and there.)


First of all do you have the name of the person who advised you it was the 29th as the last day? I assume you still have your receipt and it has there ID on it, if so and they admit that they gave you the wrong date, be it verbal or in writing then the store will honour it, or should, if you speak to someone high enough. Second of all do you have the name of the person who told you it was a new person who told you this and that they were new? This will only help if you take it to court, IMO on this note NEVER EVER tell customer service people that you will take legal action, honestly the amount of times we hear this and NOTHING ever happens is about 99%, me personally, 100% and it happens on a daily basis, you will be laughed at.

Here is what you need to do.

Go back to the store, ask for the store manager, and explain calmly (what ever you do, dont get angry) the situation, say that you were told by (make sure you use there name) that the last date of refund was this date, advise them what the second person told you (if you dont have there name, get there name before you talk to the manager) that the person who told you that was new and that no refund was available and they told you to contact customer services, you contacted customer services and it was escalated to a manager who is now not calling you back.

Explain to them that you acted in good faith based on the advise given by the staff member and that you would of returned it the day earlier if you were advised except that your wife was still undecided, explain to them the situation with regards to why you bought the phone for your wife. If the manager is male, make a joke about woman being always so undecided (if you can pick his temperment, otherwise dont) if it is female, make a joke about you buying it as a suprise for your wife.

Explain to them that all you want is a refund no more, no less, the phone is still in good condition.

If they say no still, request to speak to the owner of the store, they will say he is not in. Advise them you understand why they have said no, allthough you still do not agree with them, request the owners contact name, cell phone number and email address.

They will most likely only give you his name and email addres. Also ask for the head of customer services for the call centres name, cell phone number and email address (EVERY Head of customer services have a cell phone, dont take no for an answer).

Advise them that if you dont get the answer you want you plan to escalate to the highest level (CEO) to get the correct decision, explain this is not because you feel they have made the wrong decision but because the decision needs to be made by someone with authority, obviously you have been given incorrect information but you understand they dont have the power to change the terms and conditions even though the terms and conditions were set by the employee when selling you the phone.

This will ether get you the correct email /cell phone number so you can continue complain that way, once you get to a head of a dept, as long as you are reasonable and not angry and explain the situation, they will not want to waste time on you, they have much more important things to deal with, if you explain you are prepared to go over there heads, they will not want that to happen because they dont want there ceo saying to them, why the hell am i dealing with this guy, you should of taken care of it.

I had a situation once were I over a weekly payment and the company were going to refund the over payment but take $40 admin fee for returning me money. I continually asked for a breakdown of the chargers on how they got $40 as the total for a 1 min job of making a bank payment. It took me to get to the chief financial officer, following the above until I got all my money, they claimed they were still correct but due to my insistance they would pay the full amount (eg we are still right but you are annoying me now bugger off) I of course did not leave it there and replied to him he was not right, after i got my money of course, which i never got a reply to lol.

Just be calm and explain thoroughly and most important record the names of the people you speak with and always mention those names to the next level of management as you escalate until you get your money back.

from a legal standpoint you are the winner.

but the barrier to arguing your point is higher then the $200 you paid.


though even if you had paid with a credit card you probably would lose a chargeback because you agree that you agreed to the purchase. most companies would brush this off as a merchant dispute and refer you back to the service provider.

I agree with Symac though. Your best bet is always an executive email carpet bomb. It's one way atleast to guarantee an actual response.

Though don't discount regulatory complaints. I used to work in the financial/credit industry. A complaint received through the BBB and the regulatory agencies counted harder against agents and middle management then lawsuits did.

In all honesty, I don't know what Canadian companies are like, but if you politely make it clear that you will seek a different answer from someone higher in authority, that might be considered a complaint and give the manager on duty the power to refund the phone. If they need to contact the store manager, tell them that you'll wait for them to get the manager on the phone and talk to them.

Depending on the company, providing good customer service may give the manager on duty the necessary justification to return the phone. If you go in, make sure you are talking to whomever the manager on duty is, even if you're just getting contact information for the store manager and/or owner, etc.

No lawsuit necessary! Though I did have to threaten one before she suddenly "went to see what she could do." Got the refund!

In most situations Angel I agree with you. But all the Canadian cellphone companies are scumbags. They hold you to their contract, but will never follow it if they can get away with it.

they will lie, cheat, steal, overcharge, under deliver, and then divert you to a dozen different customer service levels. On the customer facing side they don't care remotely about customer service. Within the retail and customer service framework the customer has absolutely no leverage besides paying massive cancellation charges and buying the exact same contract from the guy across the hall who charges the same price for the same service and will treat you the same way.

The telecomm industry in Canada is much like the banking and credit industry in much of the states. Widely reviled as a corrupt evil monopoly that cares only about the bottom line.

----------------------------------------------

Though that doesn't sound like the real issue here. I always thought cellphone sales in Canada are primarily through dealers. Like buying a car. Sounds like the salesman told you one thing about the rules to close the sale and the actual rules are different. Or, when you tried to return it the agent accepting the return told you some other BS to run out the clock to save the other guys' commission.

My best bet would still be to bomb social media and the email of a bunch of executives. Even though it isn't their fault they will just give you a refund to end the issue and save potential embarrassment. It's not like accepting the return should hurt them. They probably just send it back to the manufacturer.

$70 to file a claim plus whatever charge to serve it (I think $40?). My lawyers would have been free :)

Thanks guys for the (mostly) very helpful responses!

It turns out that the woman I spoke to when I tried to return it WAS the store manager. They were in a managers meeting and the district manager was there as well. I explained the situation again, explained the ambiguity in the term of the contract, explained that I was read to file a statement of claim (Scode... I would've been that 1%... I actually started drafting one last night). She went into "the back," presumably spoke to the district manager, came back and issued the refund.

Christ scode you need a hobby. That wall of text is re-fluff-u-luss.

believe it or not, it was in the morning before i went to work too lol